23 - Emre Can

Underkategori til tidligere LFC-spillere
Oomph242
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Re: 23 - Emre Can

Indlæg af Oomph242 » fredag, 08. sep, 2017 19:00

Niels K skrev:Så skriv dog under, hvis du mener det, Can ;)

http://turkish-football.com/photo-true- ... -new-deal/

Hvis han nu ikke mener kontrakten ikke er god nok. Med £100.000 til Lovren om ugen, så har klubben ligesom lagt et niveau for svært middelmådighed. Så Can må forvente, at forlange væsentligt mere.

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Niels K
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Re: 23 - Emre Can

Indlæg af Niels K » søndag, 29. okt, 2017 11:09

Meget godt skriv om Can, der belyser hans styrker, svagheder, bedste position osv.

Han er vel bedst som defensiv midtbanespiller - også ifølge ham selv bl.a. grundet hans konstante problemer med han læg. Spm er, om ikke Henderson skal fortsætte som 6'er, og er Can så den rette til at kunne træde i hans sted, eller om vi skal se os om efter en anden ? Can er kun 23 år, så der er store muligheder for at bygge på, og de kan begge spille 8'eren også:

One of the main criticisms aimed at Brendan Rodgers by the end of his Liverpool tenure was that he was playing his players out of position, but this was arguably one of his stronger traits. An ability to look at his players, pinpoint their best attributes and place them in the position for them to use said skills, showcasing his background in youth coaching. Instead, it was fitting the players together into a coherent whole that he struggled with.

Take, for example, Lazar Markovic: the Serb arrived as a winger and occasional striker from Benfica and Rodgers moved him back into a wing-back role. From this deeper position, Markovic had space ahead of him to run into, capable of carrying the ball at pace on the counter.

An opposing example could be Raheem Sterling, who the Northern Irishman did the same thing with. This gave Sterling space to run into like Markovic, but removed one of the best young attackers in the country from an attacking role. Whereas Markovic had a tendency to run in straight lines, Sterling had proven his footballing intelligence the previous season at the tip of a diamond midfield (another positional switch that had proved genius) and, with Luis Suarez gone and Daniel Sturridge out injured, his quality was desperately needed in the final third.

So what of Emre Can? Rodgers had moved him from his natural midfield role back into the centre of defence, on the right side of a back three and he endured a decidely mixed time. The immediate bump in his form when Jurgen Klopp moved him back into his favoured midfield role made it clear he felt more comfortable there, yet the lack of growth since then might suggest that Rodgers had cottoned on to something.

First things first, let’s make it clear: Emre Can is not a centre-back. Despite his height, he isn’t strong in the air and this was frequently exposed under Rodgers. This wasn’t so big an issue in a back three as he was generally having these aerial duels in fairly wide areas near the sides of the penalty box, but in a back four losing them would be much more dangerous as he would be more central. His time at centre-back did have a useful side-effect though: starting in the backline he could pick up the ball deep in his own half facing play and stride forward into space ahead of him. With little pressure on him in this first stage of build-up, he could make use of the powerful runs that are the arguably the best feature of his play as a box-to-box midfielder, forcing opposition teams into shifting shape to combat him safe in the knowledge that Lucas Leiva was dropping into the space he had left behind to cover.


Can picks up the ball deep and facing play

He strides forward with the ball and Lucas covers
With Rodgers’ sacking this experiment was scrapped and since then we have seen perceptions of Can yo-yo. An initial bump in form on the arrival of Klopp was a welcome sign that he was in his right place for a fanbase that had grown tired of Rodgers’ methods. His reputation continued to grow in spite of some pretty glaring flaws and he then took a quite unfair battering for a dip in form that looked more to do with fatigue in a thin squad than a decline in his quality. His highs weren’t as high as they were presented, and his lows weren’t as low as the moans painted them.

It’s easy to see why the perception of Can is muddled however, as there are two distinct sides to him from an attacking perspective. The first is the one we saw from him at centre-back: a willingness to push forward bravely on the ball, to get the opposition on their heels or be powered past, and an ability to pick a pass. The second is the one we are likely to see from him in centre-midfield: an infuriating tendency to always be in a position where he can’t pick the ball up off a defender and the turning circle of a boat. Facing play, Can is an unmistakable boon to the side and having him to pass the ball back to would be a relief for most forwards, but it’s getting the ball to those forwards that becomes the issue with him in the midfield.

Ideally, the defenders and Jordan Henderson at the base of the midfield should be able to pass it forward into the midfield to supply the forwards, yet too often they end up either have to play longer passes direct to the forwards, which are easier to cut out, or wide to the full-backs. Can is rarely available for a pass for these deeper players and, even if he is, his difficulty on turning on the ball to be able to link with the forwards results in the ball being played back anyway. This might not be such an issue were he partnered with someone like Philippe Coutinho or Adam Lallana who can do this linking for him, however he is most frequently alongside Georginio Wijnaldum, who is more mobile on the ball but has the same positional difficulties. It might not be completely their fault, as Klopp likes to have them running beyond the wingers high up the pitch to overload the flanks, but this was a problem prior to the manager’s arrival and frankly they need to vary their movement more.

This failure of both men to stagger their positioning up the pitch means that in addition to forcing the deeper players to go long, there’s no one in a position to counter-press if the pass is cut out, which is inclined to happen as Henderson is a good passer but by no means a playmaker. If the forwards all stay forward, the full-backs push up high and Can and Wijnaldum advance too, then that’s seven players very high ahead of the ball – excellent to overload the defence if the ball is won, suicidal if it’s lost. Henderson has adapted admirably to a deeper role, however he isn’t a natural holding midfielder and it can show – his running making up for a lot of the ground given away by his colleagues, but his determination to win the ball when it’s more appropriate to simply try to hold up a player and allow support to get back can open up Liverpool defensively – while it’s dubious as to whether or not Liverpool’s centre-backs are good enough even before you take into account how much they are exposed by so many players joining the attack. Then take into account that even if these three players were top quality, there’s a space from the edge of the area until the halfway line where only one midfielder would patrol, giving the opposition acres of space to control the ball, organise their counter-attack and break into.


Liverpool commit a lot of players to the forward line, making it hard to progress the ball up the pitch and leaving them susceptible to counters
Although much of these issues are systemic rather than strictly an issue with Can, the German has a similar Jekyll and Hyde approach to defending as he does attacking. He is energetic in his pressing, generally does a good job of positioning himself so that he blocks passes into the feet of players behind him and, while it is possible to drag him up the pitch to leave space behind, this is symptomatic of Liverpool’s man-orientated pressing rather than solely a personal fault.

That said, he doesn’t necessarily possess great defensive nous in regards to the team structure, instead focussing on simply what his job is. For instance, he may press and position himself so that it is difficult to play a pass around him, but if the opposition does break through the midfield line and he now needs to turn and around and support the defenders, he has a tendency to stop and stare when he should be rushing back. It’s not that he doesn’t track back, it’s that he frequently only tracks back if it is clearly his job to do so: chasing down an attacker to put in a tackle if they have run off the back of or past him, yet not sprinting back to support his teammates if the same happens to them. It’s also common for a teammate to shepherd a player towards Can but for him to just stand there rather than closing in on the player and cutting off their options. He essentially defends like a player in his own individual battle rather than as a part of an eleven playing another.

In addition, although his energy and strength allow him to bully opposition players off the ball, his general lack of mobility means that players can dribble past him if they can shift his bodyweight in the right direction – his size making it harder for him to set his feet properly.

So if Can isn’t a centre-back and he’s not necessarily a centre-midfielder either, what is he? One possible alternative is a full-back. He’s played the position before, debuting for Germany against Poland there, and starting wide means that he is already on the half-turn when receiving the ball, making it easier to get him facing forward to use his best skills. This made more sense under Rodgers, whose tendency to steal ideas from Pep Guardiola could have come in handy: Can playing as an inside full-back like the Catalan had used Philipp Lahm and David Alaba amongst others at Bayern Munich. Can could stay wide for the first stage of the build-up to make it easier for him to move the ball forward then tuck into the middle in his natural central role once the ball has progressed, again using his best attacking qualities with the play in front of him, while someone such as Jordan Ibe could provide the width on the right.

There’s two major flaws with this idea though. One is that Rodgers isn’t manager anymore: Klopp uses his full-backs to provide width and, while Can can run, the expectation on Liverpool’s full-backs is a level beyond what he can muster. The second is that he already struggles with some of the technical aspects of defending in midfield, so putting him up against tricky wingers isn’t likely to end well, especially in a league with such a heavy emphasis on wide players as the Premier League. There’s also the issue of whether some of Can’s qualities would be the same from a wide position – he can burst past a player and is a good passer, but how does that translate to beating his opposing full-back and whipping in a cross? We simply don’t know currently.

Can considers the holding role to be his strongest: “I’ve had calf problems for many years and it has been very difficult for me because I’ve played out of position, which means more sprints… When I play as a number eight I have to go forward and sprint more and I had a few problems with my calf. When I play at six you don’t have to sprint too much, you are in the middle and you have to make challenges and don’t have to go too far away.” The issue with this is that those sprints are arguably his best attribute and, while he has shown himself to be calmer in this role when given the opportunity, he needs greater awareness of his surroundings to be successful there. Him being the first pass out of defence also only highlights his issues with his back to goal further – unless he drops in between the centre-backs, although this then makes Liverpool’s build-up more one dimensional.

The reality is that the box-to-box role he currently plays probably is his best position, but his deficiencies mean he can’t always be relied upon to play to the standard Liverpool require. Nevertheless, there are some methods Liverpool could employ to get around these flaws yet still let him play in the centre of the park: RB Leipzig often have one of their midfielders drop back to the right of their centre-backs, allowing the right-back to push on and the centre-midfielder to join the first stage of the build-up, which could suit both Can and Nathaniel Clyne, but also afford Henderson greater freedom.

It’s of course not too much to expect a professional footballer to work on their weaknesses, however Liverpool don’t currently offer real support to make that happen. If Can had a guiding influence like Steven Gerrard had Gary McAllister or a calm head like Dietmar Hamann alongside him, he would be likely to blossom into a world-class midfielder, yet he is surrounded by players who have problems of their own and can’t be expected to walk him through a game.

With Can in the last year of his contract, there’s some panic around his future. On current ability Can probably wouldn’t be much of a loss to Liverpool – still, it’s not difficult to imagine him walking into another team and fulfilling his considerable potential. It’s this question of what could have been which makes him an important figure, but also a frustrating reflection of where Liverpool presently are.

Filos of Isk
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Re: 23 - Emre Can

Indlæg af Filos of Isk » tirsdag, 31. okt, 2017 10:59

Jeg syntes han skal spille mere som den defensive midtbane. Jeg syntes grundlæggende ikke han får brugt sin fysik ret godt som box-to-box(i nuværende system), men til gengæld stiller rollen meget store krav til hans spilforståelse.

Men det er rigtigt påpeget i skrivet at det giver nogle problemer, især det at Henderson ikke er der til at hjælpe forsvaret af med bolden. Det burde ikke være et problem for så ringe er Can ikke med bolden, men problemet opstår når hverken Mignolet, Matip eller Lovren/Klavan er specielt stærke med bolden, ok Lovren kan slå nogle gode lange afleveringer, derfor var det 1/2 genialt af Klopp at gøre Hendo til ankeret på midten, så vi styrkede den del af opspillet, for under BR var det virkeligt et problem når modstanderen gik i højt pres.
Jeg tror også at Henderson ville være bedre en tand længere fremme på banen, jeg syntes at Henderson er født til den rolle Can spiller nu.

Så er der den der hage med at spillere kan forventes at arbejde med deres svage sider... Vi er bare ikke altid enige i hvilke svage sider en spiller kan forbedre :D

når snakken falder på næste sæson, så er det svært at sige. Jeg syntes ikke at vores sample størrelse med Can som DM er stor nok til at afgøre om han er god nok til det. I forhold til ikke at bringe for mange nye spillere ind af gangen ville det være virkelig rart at Keita var den eneste nye spiller på midten(udover talenter eller hvis vi pludselig får muligheden for at lave et vildt indkøb), men det kræver jo at de øvrige er så gode at de ikke kan erstattes med en oprykkers bedste spiller eller lign.
Så er der Keita, hvor skal han spille? jeg forventer ikke han kommer ind og bliver DM, men jeg troede også at AOC skulle være Box-to-box, så hvad ved jeg :dontknow:
Så ved vi ikke om Can benytter lejligheden til at fortsætte sit eventyr et andet sted.
Eller hvilke alternative defensive midtbaner vi kunne have råd til.

Især nedenstående syntes jeg er værd at overveje, da det nok er roden til rigtig mange ringe præstationer fra vores spillere på det sidste.
It’s of course not too much to expect a professional footballer to work on their weaknesses, however Liverpool don’t currently offer real support to make that happen. If Can had a guiding influence like Steven Gerrard had Gary McAllister or a calm head like Dietmar Hamann alongside him, he would be likely to blossom into a world-class midfielder, yet he is surrounded by players who have problems of their own and can’t be expected to walk him through a game.
Jeg håber meget vi får Can at se i en mere defensiv rolle i denne sæson allerede i morgen tænker jeg er et godt sted at starte.

Rasputin
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Re: 23 - Emre Can

Indlæg af Rasputin » onsdag, 01. nov, 2017 10:43

Det var en rigtig god gennemgang/analyse af Can.
Jeg kan rigtigt godt lide Can, og for knap 2 måneder siden var det nærmest 'livsvigtig' at vi fik forlænget kontrakten med ham. Synes at han har et drive som vi ofte har manglet. Han er dog dalet i niveau, sammen med holdet. og pointen om hvor han passer og med hvem var virkelig interessant. En god spiller med stort potentiale, men som måske ikke kommer til at vise det i Liverpool.
ligner det samme med problemstilling med Hendo?

Filos of Isk
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Re: 23 - Emre Can

Indlæg af Filos of Isk » onsdag, 01. nov, 2017 13:52

Rasputin skrev:Det var en rigtig god gennemgang/analyse af Can.
Jeg kan rigtigt godt lide Can, og for knap 2 måneder siden var det nærmest 'livsvigtig' at vi fik forlænget kontrakten med ham. Synes at han har et drive som vi ofte har manglet. Han er dog dalet i niveau, sammen med holdet. og pointen om hvor han passer og med hvem var virkelig interessant. En god spiller med stort potentiale, men som måske ikke kommer til at vise det i Liverpool.
ligner det samme med problemstilling med Hendo?
Jeg syntes egentlig Henderson var der. Altså han havde gode perioder, han har været så god at han fik lov at spille blandt de 4 forreste på Suarez holdet. Og så kom skaderne.
Men Henderson er en meget vigtigere del af holdet end Can. Henderson har været med til at løse vores kæmpe problemer med opspillet især i starten af sidste sæson, ved at blive spillet i en for ham unaturlig dyb rolle. Jeg tror at Henderson ville se noget bedre ud hvis vi spillede ham lidt længere fremme på banen.
Jeg tror Henderson startede sæsonne lidt bagud i form, hvorfor han nogle gange er blevet hurtig træt, f.eks. under og efter City kampen og det kostede nogle dårlige kampe, men jeg tror også han er blevet stærkere.

Så det ligner den samme problemstilling i den forstand at Hendo ikke spiller sin naturlig rolle, han er ikke fantastisk til at sætte taklingerne ind og få lagt fysik bagved, det er Can bedre til, men til gengæld var vores opspil forfærdeligt indtil vi fik Hendo derned i maskinrummet.
Jeg syntes Hendo minder meget om den tidlige Xabi Alonso, da vi spillede meget 4-4-2 var det Gerrard der var BtB og så måtte Alonso være Holding og det var ok, men hæmmede også Alonso meget og da vi endelig gik over til 4-2-3-1 blev Alonso fantastisk efter en inkuberings periode.
Det er en af grundende til at jeg gerne ser at Henderson får en defensiv makker så han kan være mere kreativ, ikke at han er nogen Alonso, men han kan en helt masse.

Hr. Drejer
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Re: 23 - Emre Can

Indlæg af Hr. Drejer » fredag, 03. nov, 2017 11:08

Velinformeret Dominic King i Daily Mail og David Maddock i Mirror, skriver at forhandlingerne er gået i stå. Vi har åbenbart en lønstruktur som siger at spillere som ikke har stjernestatus maks kan få £75.000 om ugen, mens Cans repræsentanter ønsker det samme som Coutinho, som ifølge de to journalister får £160.000 om ugen.

Spørgsmålet er om vi skulle have solgt ham i sommers, og købt en anden midtbanespiller. Nu smutter han sikkert gratis.

http://www.liverpool.no/nyheter/2017/11 ... liverpool/
"Giving absolutely everything doesn't mean you get anything... but it’s the only chance to get something!”
Jurgen Klopp

mortenbak
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Re: 23 - Emre Can

Indlæg af mortenbak » fredag, 03. nov, 2017 11:31

Det må da også være mega nederen at man skal nøjes med 75000 £ om ugen, når man knokler 4 timer om dagen til fodboldtræning og endda spiller kampe ind i mellem.
Urimeligt!!!


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Re: 23 - Emre Can

Indlæg af Hr. Drejer » fredag, 03. nov, 2017 11:40

mortenbak skrev:Det må da også være mega nederen at man skal nøjes med 75000 £ om ugen, når man knokler 4 timer om dagen til fodboldtræning og endda spiller kampe ind i mellem.
Urimeligt!!!


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:lol: Ja, gad vide om menneskerettighederne er overholdt i denne sag.
"Giving absolutely everything doesn't mean you get anything... but it’s the only chance to get something!”
Jurgen Klopp

Bojangles
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Re: 23 - Emre Can

Indlæg af Bojangles » fredag, 03. nov, 2017 12:35

Hvis vi lige ser bort fra de latterlige beløb, der jongleres med i fodboldverdenen...

Med 100.000 til Lovren, har vi også sat standarden for, hvad vi vil /kan tilbyde. Imø er Can langt mere værd end Lovren - så i det perspektiv er 160.000 overhovedet ikke urimeligt - i hvertfald lyder 75.000 ganske lavt - specielt, hvis de vil smide en lang kontrakt (5år) på den og ingen frikøbsklausul.

Forskellen er 85.000 om ugen - det er ca. 37miokr om året. dvs. ca. 185 miokr over en 5årig periode. En ny spiller af hans kvalitet koster vel gerne 300-400miokr. (hvis han ikke kan findes på en bosman.) + lønnen oveni.

Det virker på mig meget som om at lønnen i klubben er meget baseret på alder - at vi f.eks knap ville betale kost og logi til Sterling (jaja, overdrivelses fremmer forståelse) mens 30årige middelmådige spillere render rundt til en månedsløn der svarer til, hvad en højtprofileret direktør i en international koncern tjener på et år.

mortenbak
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Re: 23 - Emre Can

Indlæg af mortenbak » fredag, 03. nov, 2017 12:57

Bojangles skrev:Hvis vi lige ser bort fra de latterlige beløb, der jongleres med i fodboldverdenen...

Med 100.000 til Lovren, har vi også sat standarden for, hvad vi vil /kan tilbyde. Imø er Can langt mere værd end Lovren - så i det perspektiv er 160.000 overhovedet ikke urimeligt - i hvertfald lyder 75.000 ganske lavt - specielt, hvis de vil smide en lang kontrakt (5år) på den og ingen frikøbsklausul.

Forskellen er 85.000 om ugen - det er ca. 37miokr om året. dvs. ca. 185 miokr over en 5årig periode. En ny spiller af hans kvalitet koster vel gerne 300-400miokr. (hvis han ikke kan findes på en bosman.) + lønnen oveni.

Det virker på mig meget som om at lønnen i klubben er meget baseret på alder - at vi f.eks knap ville betale kost og logi til Sterling (jaja, overdrivelses fremmer forståelse) mens 30årige middelmådige spillere render rundt til en månedsløn der svarer til, hvad en højtprofileret direktør i en international koncern tjener på et år.
Du har en fin pointe ifht fodboldverdenen.... Ifht til virkeligheden er det stadig fuldstændigt grotesk. Fodboldklubber og især spillerne bliver mere og mere distanceret fra fansne... Det må blive et problem på den lange bane.


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texy
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Re: 23 - Emre Can

Indlæg af texy » fredag, 03. nov, 2017 13:19

Bojangles skrev:Hvis vi lige ser bort fra de latterlige beløb, der jongleres med i fodboldverdenen...

Med 100.000 til Lovren, har vi også sat standarden for, hvad vi vil /kan tilbyde. Imø er Can langt mere værd end Lovren - så i det perspektiv er 160.000 overhovedet ikke urimeligt - i hvertfald lyder 75.000 ganske lavt - specielt, hvis de vil smide en lang kontrakt (5år) på den og ingen frikøbsklausul.

Forskellen er 85.000 om ugen - det er ca. 37miokr om året. dvs. ca. 185 miokr over en 5årig periode. En ny spiller af hans kvalitet koster vel gerne 300-400miokr. (hvis han ikke kan findes på en bosman.) + lønnen oveni.

Det virker på mig meget som om at lønnen i klubben er meget baseret på alder - at vi f.eks knap ville betale kost og logi til Sterling (jaja, overdrivelses fremmer forståelse) mens 30årige middelmådige spillere render rundt til en månedsløn der svarer til, hvad en højtprofileret direktør i en international koncern tjener på et år.
Man kan vel også argumentere, at Lovren-eksemplet er et skræmme-eksempel på, hvad der kan ske, når man betaler en spiller så meget, at det måske er med til at fjerne sulten efter at kunne forbedre sig endnu mere og dermed gøre sig fortjent til endnu mere.

Og det er da meget muligt, at Can er bedre end Lovren. Men han er samtidig markant ringere end Coutinho, og han kommer aldrig i den liga.

Nu er det ikke mine penge, men jeg kunne måske godt se fornuften i at matche Lovrens løn i forhold til Can. Men så heller ikke mere. Can er jo ikke stabilt en klassespiller. Han har virkelig gode kampe, men han har også stadig anonyme kampe, og mangler generelt stadig at flytte spillet hurtigere.

Jeg tror, at Can er kommet så langt hen i sin kontrakt, at han kun har øje for den store pose penge, der ligger i form af et sign-on fee, fordi han er transferfri til sommer. Hvis Juve eksempelvis er villige til at betale £10m i sign-on fee, så svarer det til ca. £50.000 om ugen i 4 år. Og det er så udover, hvad de kan forhandle sig frem til af løn i Juve.

Jeg tvivler dog på, at Juve vil kunne betale £100.000 om ugen eller mere, men måske jeg bare ikke helt har styr på, hvor mange penge de har i Italien.

Anyway. Jeg tror som nævnt i en anden tråd, at vi henter Goretzka på samme tid som Can stopper (enten i januar eller til sommer) og for samme beløb (enten et symbolsk transferbeløb til januar eller transferfri til sommer). Og jeg er overbevist om, at Goretzka vil acceptere en lavere løn end Can. Hvor god Goretzka er, kan jeg dog ikke helt udtale mig om.
Kloppite

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Re: 23 - Emre Can

Indlæg af Hr. Drejer » fredag, 03. nov, 2017 13:36

texy skrev:Anyway. Jeg tror som nævnt i en anden tråd, at vi henter Goretzka på samme tid som Can stopper
Hvorfor tror du det? Har der været rygter?
"Giving absolutely everything doesn't mean you get anything... but it’s the only chance to get something!”
Jurgen Klopp

texy
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Re: 23 - Emre Can

Indlæg af texy » fredag, 03. nov, 2017 13:53

Hr. Drejer skrev:
texy skrev:Anyway. Jeg tror som nævnt i en anden tråd, at vi henter Goretzka på samme tid som Can stopper
Hvorfor tror du det? Har der været rygter?
Ja, men ikke med nogle troværdige kilder. Vi nævnes bare som klubben forrest i køen.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/ ... r-11453971
Kloppite

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Mads T.
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Re: 23 - Emre Can

Indlæg af Mads T. » fredag, 03. nov, 2017 14:40

Hvis vi bytter Can lige over for Goretzka udgiftsmæssigt, så mener jeg at vi laver en strålende handel.

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Re: 23 - Emre Can

Indlæg af Aggerdoo » fredag, 03. nov, 2017 15:22

Can er ikke så god, at han kan tillade sig at stille store krav til en ny kontrakt. Jeg har det fint med at lade ham gå, det bør ikke være en ekstraordinært svær opgave at erstatte ham.

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